908 0r 902?

[voice of the theater]

Good thing badtoby said it was OK to hijack his thread. I think it's at least half way to Cuba by now!

[RonSSS]

I lie like a rug!

I only looked at one, the others are in the 19's and I really don't want to take them apart.
Not the lightweight frams. Push on terminals.
391021 date on the driver.

Must have been confusing them with the oddball 25746 806 drivers that do have the 23744 frams. Date code on that driver is 110979. 391941 on the fram.
I should try those drivers on my A7's.

See what you have done! Made a liar out of me, and now I want to start messing with this stuff again.

Embarrasing......

[bowtie427ss]

What about with a 1200 hz crossover? Do you still prefer the older 802's in that instance or in your opinion does the 802-8G have just as smooth of a crossover transition at 1200 hz with the added advantage of better upper frequency response/tangerine phase plug?

Let's just say that i know a lot more now than i did when i first started buying 802G's and other Altec components.

Today i don't give them(802G) a 2nd look in most marketplaces as they simply command too much money with no significant attributes to justify it beyond them being the proper driver for certain "original" loads such as in a model 15 or 19. I would seek them for a proper restoration.

For a custom build with a projected XO below 1khz i'd most likely seek 802D or earlier. For a build with a projected XO above 1khz i'd be looking toward Altec/GPA 902's.

added advantage of better upper frequency response/tangerine phase plug?

I would need to see proof that the Tangerine is responsible for extended HF response before i consider that claim to be valid. Until proven differently, i view the tangerine for what it is/was, a cost cutting measure, very little more.

802G has an attribute that i believe is far more contributory to it's slightly unique sonic character than the tangerine, something you've not seen mentioned by the "experts" with their pretty charts and fancy graphs.

I'm referring of course to the magnetic circuit, specifically the "pot" or motor structure. Of all these drivers we're discussing, the 802G/808B is the only one that uses a ONE PIECE CASTING for the magnetic return structure(pot). Previous 802's are welded together from rolled steel pipe and plate, 902's have rolled steel front and back plates. Different alloys have different magnetic properties. Anything that changes the magnetic properties of a loudspeaker is likely to affect the loudspeaker's performance, no?

This MAJOR change in construction also took place in the 416 woofer and resulted in the 416B.

FWIW, 416-8C's were made in 2 versions, one used rolled steel back plate, one used a cast backplate. 515E's were also made in 2 versions, yep, one has a flat rolled steel backplate, the other a rounded cast backplate, they sound different from each other, and are usually valued differently in the marketplace. Yet, you will see no mention of these varying attributes from the "experts".

Remember, just because you read it on the internet doesn't make it true. Do your own research, make your own measurements, reach logical conclusions.

EDIT:Bill Eckle does indeed acknowledge "improved magnet structure" for both the 802G and 416B.

These "improved structures" are at least in part the one piece cast pots, and IMO are the single biggest contributor for any variation in sound from their predecessors.

[voice of the theater]

I lie like a rug!

I only looked at one, the others are in the 19's and I really don't want to take them apart.
Not the lightweight frams. Push on terminals.
391021 date on the driver.

Must have been confusing them with the oddball 25746 806 drivers that do have the 23744 frams. Date code on that driver is 110979. 391941 on the fram.
I should try those drivers on my A7's.

See what you have done! Made a liar out of me, and now I want to start messing with this stuff again.

Embarrasing......

From your date codes--if those frams are the originals for your drivers it may confirm what I've heard--that the light diaphragms were discontinued in the late 70's. Your 806's from 1979 have the light diaphragms, and your 902's from 1980 do not just as my 902's from 1981 do not. I wouldn't be surprised if 1979 was the last batch of light diaphragms partially based on these date codes. I guess you sometimes have to fill in the blanks with observations like these as much of this stuff was not documented by Altec at the time (or if it was, the documentation is hard to find/hasn't survived the years)....

[Sundown]

Let's just say that i know a lot more now than i did when i first started buying 802G's and other Altec components.

Today i don't give them(802G) a 2nd look in most marketplaces as they simply command too much money with no significant attributes to justify it beyond them being the proper driver for certain "original" loads such as in a model 15 or 19. I would seek them for a proper restoration.

For a custom build with a projected XO below 1khz i'd most likely seek 802D or earlier. For a build with a projected XO above 1khz i'd be looking toward Altec/GPA 902's.

I would need to see proof that the Tangerine is responsible for extended HF response before i consider that claim to be valid. Until proven differently, i view the tangerine for what it is/was, a cost cutting measure, very little more.

802G has an attribute that i believe is far more contributory to it's slightly unique sonic character than the tangerine, something you've not seen mentioned by the "experts" with their pretty charts and fancy graphs.

I'm referring of course to the magnetic circuit, specifically the "pot" or motor structure. Of all these drivers we're discussing, the 802G/808B is the only one that uses a ONE PIECE CASTING for the magnetic return structure(pot). Previous 802's are welded together from rolled steel pipe and plate, 902's have rolled steel front and back plates. Different alloys have different magnetic properties. Anything that changes the magnetic properties of a loudspeaker is likely to affect the loudspeaker's performance, no?

This MAJOR change in construction also took place in the 416 woofer and resulted in the 416B.

FWIW, 416-8C's were made in 2 versions, one used rolled steel back plate, one used a cast backplate. 515E's were also made in 2 versions, yep, one has a flat rolled steel backplate, the other a rounded cast backplate, they sound different from each other, and are usually valued differently in the marketplace. Yet, you will see no mention of these varying attributes from the "experts".

Remember, just because you read it on the internet doesn't make it true. Do your own research, make your own measurements, reach logical conclusions.

EDIT:Bill Eckle does indeed acknowledge "improved magnet structure" for both the 802G and 416B.

These "improved structures" are at least in part the one piece cast pots, and IMO are the single biggest contributor for any variation in sound from their predecessors.

It's been a while since I last researched this topic regarding magnet structure but if memory serves me right the improved magnet field is due to the alnico magnet being in the VC vs surrounding the VC on ferrite magnets. From what you are describing the improved gauss is from the one piece pot and magnet type w the drawback being lower wattage peak and demag if overamplified. The 902 would be an excellent for a person w a big amp that likes louder music I'm guessing; if I'm reading your post right

[Altec Best]

Let's just say that i know a lot more now than i did when i first started buying 802G's and other Altec components.

Today i don't give them(802G) a 2nd look in most marketplaces as they simply command too much money with no significant attributes to justify it beyond them being the proper driver for certain "original" loads such as in a model 15 or 19. I would seek them for a proper restoration.

For a custom build with a projected XO below 1khz i'd most likely seek 802D or earlier. For a build with a projected XO above 1khz i'd be looking toward Altec/GPA 902's.

Unless you already own something like this.That's why it pays to collect them early and often .....


This pair came with the lite diaphragms 23744's





Also here's a better photo of the 802G's that came in my 19's

[bowtie427ss]

Unless you already own something like this.That's why it pays to collect them early and often .....


This pair came with the lite diaphragms 23744's





Also here's a better photo of the 802G's that came in my 19's

I have 3 pair of 802-8G AB. One pair is "close" to that, in the sense that they are unused since full GPA rebuilds, a pristine original OEM pair(no labels) in model 15's, and the 3rd pair(currently in storage with the 1st pair) are on 511's that get rolled in and out of my A7 system.

[RonSSS]

From your date codes--if those frams are the originals for your drivers it may confirm what I've heard--that the light diaphragms were discontinued in the late 70's. Your 806's from 1979 have the light diaphragms, and your 902's from 1980 do not just as my 902's from 1981 do not. I wouldn't be surprised if 1979 was the last batch of light diaphragms partially based on these date codes. I guess you sometimes have to fill in the blanks with observations like these as much of this stuff was not documented by Altec at the time (or if it was, the documentation is hard to find/hasn't survived the years)....

I'll yard the 19's apart his weekend and see what they are. I may be a total liar, I'm not sure now.

Ok, I'm a liar.

Ron

[voice of the theater]

I'll yard the 19's apart his weekend and see what they are. I may be a total liar, I'm not sure now.

Ok, I'm a liar.

Ron

Please keep us posted as to what you find. Pics are always nice too if possible.....

[RonSSS]

Sorry, I edited above. I was wrong again.
Not the lightweight frams.

Was going to put the 806 tangerines with the light frams in the 19's, but they have loading caps and no felt for removal I basically got frustrated and quit on the whole deal.

I would rather work on my vette.

Ron